what makes you differ
25Feb08
What if…from next Sunday on indefinitely, every single true living church the world over took down the 1streformethafundocostapiscodoxian tags out of their names – & replaced it with “Featured Minister: Jesus Christ?”
That’s an excellent thought. That’s seriously the core of all of Christianity, yet there seems to be a lot of rabbit trails.
No rabbit trails! Yay!
Jesus. Period.
That’s what gets me when people ask me what denomination I’m a part of..
“Why does it matter?” I respond. “I’m for Jesus.”
What’s the point of compartmentalizing the modern church? For Jesus is the way and the truth and the life and I will love him with all my heart and soul and mind and from there love my neighbor as myself. All else will follow.
When can we start breaking down the barriers that separate the so called modern church and become one body united under the head? Returning to the vision and truth of who Jesus currently is and taking hold of what he desires us to become.
Father, I ask that by the blood of the lamb your chosen people might unite under the banner of your Son. That no longer would we have disagreements about theology. That no longer would your children, those that call you Lord find fault with one another, but instead find encouragement for each other so that we may all press on toward the goal. That we may all, as one body, count as loss everything except knowing Jesus. Stir up the unity. Stir up the passion for Jesus across the globe. May we all come into a greater revelation of Christ Jesus.
William, amen, totally agree with you bro, i pray that prayer along with you now. i like your comments on the denomination question, i’ve always disliked that question, but now i look forward to next time i’m asked so i can just say “Jesus”.
Glen, that would be awesome to have Jesus as the main minister and leader in church. That’s what we’re thirsty for, yearning for, and all we need, but why is it so very rare?
Check out the chuches in North Korea, in peoples homes in China, pretty much whereever it may well cost your life to meet together, no denominations, unity, Jesus! Is it just that it takes desparation to be obediant, or are all the wolves just staying away from flock when the going gets tough?
Desperation yes. That doesn’t have to come from persecution, but there’s no question persecution sorts out a lot of the non-issues. The thing is…the Holy Spirit is available to sort out every one of those collective non-issues now! That’s the best choice, not because we’re afraid of persecution – but this freedom we have now should be a wide open run for the kingdom of God – as long as we’re willing to lay down our lives even though it’s not being demanded of us >>
Steve your question is at the heart of it (& I immediately was praying along with William the second I read that too*) – why is it so rare to have Jesus as the main minister in church? Selah! Maybe because it’s easier to be the 1streformethafundocostapiscodoxians than to manifest Christ Jesus in our mortal flesh. If there’s nothing to hide behind and my two choices are to either a) have people look at me and truly see Jesus, or b) pack up and go home – suddenly I’m desperate, suddenly I need a miracle. This is good.
it would take the anointing to do it; and thus a yielded posture on everyones part; once the anointing takes over it won’t matter what we or anyone else calls us……the evidence is clear.
Denominations can be about routines. Routines are comforting. Is it wrong to find comfort in fellowships created to worship God? Though it may not be ideal or completely righteous, there are worse things to be enraptured in. Also, I believe the spirit of God falls on everyone in a different way, expressing Himself in different forms. What good can come to the person that is turned off by certain expressions of the Holy Spirit. I tend to think that God works with our flaws which is a result of our stubbornness as much as he reforms the clay and starts over.
Alright, lots of honest questions here…so let’s go one at a time:
1) Fellowship created to worship God is everything – just remember only the Holy Spirit can create that. You won’t find ritual or liturgy set up or praised anywhere in the new testament – instead you have teaching on and examples of the Holy Spirit getting dynamic and exclusive control. It’s there you find the faith that was once delivered (paradosis – given over, passed on) to the saints, not in any extrabiblical human tradition. The comfort God completely endorses is not in grouping around preferred rituals; but in being totally like-minded and one in expression (by one Spirit). It’s incredibly wise to refuse to find comfort outside the presence of the living God, especially in church.
2) Yes, the Holy Spirit does function through different people in different ways – this is exactly how church is described for us. These functions benefit everyone internal to the meeting, the fellowship, the body – Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12.7 that they actually “bring us together” (literal Greek translation). Division is never God’s static solution, what he desires is the total reconciliation and unity in recognizing only his leadership and approval. There would be no reason to split up and have different denominations specialize in different gifts of the Holy Ghost, since these functions are God’s exact prescriptions for the ongoing dynamic needs of every member of the church and the entire body.
Let me stop for a second before your final question. Anyone have questions or thoughts on this so far?
“How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.”
If all members of the church are participating (having a psalm, having a revelation to share with the whole church) then the church would be so diverse day to day that there wouldn’t be room for denominations. Right now the church is mostly silent. Members of a denomination could assume that all the members are alike because there’s only one or two speaking up.
We need more of the praisy-bible study vibe that was going on then.
i do have a question, but i’m going to hold it so i don’t distract from where you’re at right now. my only comment now is that i desperately desire and have for some time, a fellowship like you (refuse to find comfort outside the presence of the living God) and now Melani (Whenever you come together, everyone has something to contribute to the orchestra Holy Spirit’s conducting) are describing. Holy Spirit please come and create this in us. ..a thought came as i typelated that short prayer: sometimes we might find this in places we’re not expecting, like Jesus finding part of His at the lakeshore and H&R (kinda) Block.
Surrender every moment of every day. Ask for an increase in that vertical/internal connection with the Holy Spirit. Cultivate that. God has chosen to live in us, but he not only wants to live in us, but shine out through us. Look at Moses. His Face shone by speaking to God face-to-face. How much more should we be shining (whether literally or not) as the Holy Spirit lives IN US?
That fellowship is very much available right now both one-on-one, and as a church. I’ll get to the final part of Daniel’s question, because it’s right on the money in terms of how deeply we really want this fellowship.
What should you do if you find yourself being turned off by different expressions of the Holy Spirit?
There really are only 2 options. The first case is that what you are seeing/hearing is not God, it’s just man trying to do a God-thing. I’d be turned off too. If I was in leadership it’d be up to me to point that out and basically give the meeting back over to the Holy Spirit. If we fail to make a difference between the sacred and the common, guess what – everyone who comes in the door can see right through the charade! If I was not in leadership, I’d pray pray pray and keep myself in the unity of the Spirit. The worst thing you can do is sit there bristling with strife and disagreement. If God can allow patience to have her perfect work, so can we.
Now for the second case – and this is the true test. This time it really is the Holy Spirit functioning through someone in church. So what does that mean if I’m turned off?
Being turned off by the true power of God?! It must be rebellion caused by fear of losing what you do have in the world and ignorance of not knowing what you’d truly be gaining in God’s salvation and/or gifts.
I’ve always like the idea of the Kingdom of God. There’s an all-encompassing sound to it. With so many people involved, we still serve one purpose: the Lord. Being of God, wouldn’t unity in the Spirit be a supreme principle of the kingdom? After all, the Godhead is 3-in1, in perfect harmony. So, to me, the 1streformethafundocostapiscodoxian matches exactly to what God does as long as we stay focused on the Truth of His word and avoid, as Mr. Junk said, man trying to do the God-thing.
To put an end to my point, I don’t see anything wrong with denominational accounts of God’s plan as long as there is authentic sincerity to complete the tasks set forth by Jesus (which isn’t easy).
Well amen to the Kingdom of God being on full display in church. That’s where the discussion started – with Jesus really being the featured minister – because the literal ministry of Jesus Christ is the Kingdom of God! And amen to never allowing ourselves to be “turned on” by anything done without the Holy Spirit, or “turned off” by any genuine function or gift of the Holy Spirit.
And major amen to Johnneth’s comment above that evidence is everything, no matter what people label it. The question really isn’t how can we package the church the smartest, or how much truth we claim to have; it’s how much unction we’ve actually laid hold of – how much chrisma/anointing/Christ is tangibly present and in effect when we meet.
That definitely sounds like the place of Kingdom unity to me >>
Although I may have this wrong, I think maybe denominationalism started as a way to identify certain key doctrines to key groups, but I fear that it was a poor moved based on our obvious inability to trust that the Gospel was more than enough and that we could major on the majors and minor on the minor. I also find it interesting that Paul mentions in Romans 1:15 that he is coming to preach the Gospel to them. As if it was less than a singular transforming event but a living, growing, and breathing event that is like a a many sided prism.
What we do at our church before we start is tell everyone “they are the worship team.” We have an open microphone too so if God is speaking to someone, they can speak what he is saying. Being on the team of players (bass,) music just gets behind the person that is bringing the Word of God they received in worship. The instruments and those on the team of players are accompaning the church in Worship. Jesus is the focus. God moves on many. People will come up and sing along with the music. Some have read poems that are significant for the body during that meeting. The team of players may do a song or something spontaneous. The pastor may read a scripture on his heart. Another may prophesy (the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy – Revelations), or, share a vision. Normally, what you see and hear is all these parts that people bring in word, song and prayer making the whole of what God wants to say, or impart, or do there that evening. Sometimes all three things happen. It is interesting and it is never the same meeting twice.
Holy Spirit does it in all of us and most times people defer in Spirit when one or more wants to share making it very orderly. In the prescence of God – people change and behave like Him which is the goal.
It hasn’t always been perfect because we are still learning of Him and how to follow. Sometimes the team of players has set up and never played because the body releases prayer and scriptures that take the focus elesewhere. Other times, we will be soundchecking and we never stop because people walk in and just engage Jesus. It will go on for 3 hours and I would say by the end of the night, many as half participate. Some just don’t publicly which is perfectly fine. No requirements but you must bring your own heart-shaped bucket to the river of life.
In America, it seems all about a few standing up in front doing all the work for those who are thirsty and are in an eye-shot of running rapids. Time for a change. Hold it loosely – it is His ministry.
Oh yeah! What if church was a place where we all came ready to minister completely by the Holy Spirit…you could hand anyone the mic & they’d pray or prophesy or sing straight out of heaven…no entertainment, no need for recognition, no obligations, and absolutely no expectations except God showing up and us enjoying him?
Dude,
A city needs a love encounter. Churches are getting this throughout the land and it will grow. We aim every week for the answer to your question. I can honestly say, “we haven’t had the same metting three times.” When it gets down to twice – I will believe we are actually making headway. He is so mysterious – Consider it all a loss for the sake of knowing Jesus! All a loss – there are new sounds in his heart he is releasing. “New,” as in – “they are new to us.” More words and depth of His love will come with them. He is a God of passion! The Way! The Truth! The Life! Exceedingly and abundantly more than we ask or imagine.
Man he is so creative……. You will be getting more of that creativity. Your dilience is producing the harvest 30, 60 100 fold. Not by might. Not by power – by His Spirit. If you ever make it to DC – let me know.