Zilch. When Jesus said “Come. Let us reason” it is completely separate from philosophy. It really is simple. Walk in the Spirit. His ways are higher, have faith in Him.
I may be jumping ahead of myself, but it seems to me, the tree of simplicity bears fruit of purity, clarity, and order. Complexity bears confusion and chaos.
I feel many people begin to lose focus when philosophy moves in. Our focus is Jesus. A genuine increase of Jesus within His people. Philosophy tends to shift that focus and starts to move things within the sphere of the natural. Natural understanding. Natural programs. Natural solutions. Even when these things are dressed with “godliness”, it is effectively limiting the Holy Spirit. You cannot direct the wind. We do not need to setup tubes/channels in an attempt to direct the Holy Spirit. We have got to climb and stand on the ground where there are no fences. Jesus. Allowing Him to move as He pleases. Beyond our natural minds and understanding. Those chains have got to be broken and I feel that philosophy exercises the natural mind (which is something that needs to be brought to death at the cross, and of course lets not forget the life side of the cross as well).
I am with Beef on this question too. The diffeence between a Christian and the rest of the world is the Holy Spirit through which he/she lives by the very present Word of God. I looked up the definition of philosophy which I had always viewed as the “study of Life.” Since Jesus is ‘the way, the truth, the life,’ I never had much use for philosophy in a worldly context.
Some definitions I found:
“the rational investigation of the truths and principles of being, knowledge, or conduct.” - Random House Dictionary - 2006
“1. Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline.
2. Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods.
3.The critical analysis of fundamental assumptions or beliefs.
4. A system of values by which one lives.” - American Heritage, 2006.
Of all these defs, only one stands out as not philosophy and that would be #3. However, I left it in there because as a berean who desires to honor the Word, it makes sense.
But Jesus and later Paul explain that philosophy (system of beliefs or values by which one lives) is not following Christ or Kingdom living. In Christian terms - that is legalism. Some would say, “Well does that mean you have a license to do whatever you want?” A common counter question in this discussion I have heard over and over again. But I submit, this question is wrong because it is looking for human discipline to define Christian life which we have determined is by Holy Spirit speaking the very Word of God to us which we must obey.
The question that should be asked is, “Why such freedom of choice for the human? Does not God know that this is unreasonable to expect such a response of love in return?”
Christ died on a Cross and was raised from the dead by the the Father of Lights on the 3rd day. Through his sacrifice, sin was taken out of the world and was put to death, once and for all nailed to that cross (Colossians 2). Through his sacrifice, the Kingdom of God was established where if you confess With Your Lips and BELIEVE in your heart that Jesus is Lord, you shall be saved. This wisdom is foolishness to men. This foolishness is wiser than man’s understanding as well.
The outpouring of the Father and the Son to us has been continual ever since. It is not by might, nor by power but by His Spirit that life is not just lived, but given. Sanctification is the process by which the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth. I will use a simple testimony as an example because it fits. There was a family that lived across the street from mine growing up. The son was the guy many of us picked on in the neighborhood. We did bad hurtful things as kids to one another. Later in life, we became closer friends and I being a Christian was trying to get him saved by reasoning with him with the scripture and taking him to church when he would rarely oblige. One day, he visited and the Lord spoke - “Apologize and ask for forgiveness for all the bad things you did to him when you were younger.” I didn’t want to but the Lord pressed me. In obedience I did and the Lord brought forth many things I did that I had forgotten. The conversation I had with him was more impacting for the Kingdom then all “the witnessing” I had ever done. Where trust was lost in the spirit, it was restored. Where records of wrongs were kept, they were gone. I ultimately got to baptize my friend that same year. He requested that I would do it.
Life is not a systematic thing. It is a relationship with Christ that brings fruitful relationship with others. Each is unique but the Lord knows all things and searches your heart to bring forth life at it’s proper time. He breaks walls that have been built in relationship over wrongs done and builds relational freedom.
If you desire, freedom and love and the benevolence of The Father of Lights, then you will not take license with your new found payment of debt. You have a CHOICE. You can take advantage of others but you cannot take advantage of God because he will stand in judgement and conviction. His Love permeates mankind’s relationship with one another. In the words of Dietrich Bonhoeffer - “Jesus is the mediator of every relationship whether you believe or not.” I might be paraphrasing but it is true.
There are many great truths Holy Spirit has spoken as the Father and Son that the world believes. In the same breath, they deny the very author of them. These truths have been maligned through the way they are displayed and explained by man in his own power. At the same time, The Father in his benevolence continues to sustain his creation by them as well. He relates and serves with his authority unseen by many of those he has created. He draws all men unto himself. We are created for relationship with Him.
That is not philosophy - it’s fact. Believe it or not.
This is good - true understanding is all found in love/relationship, not intellect/opinion. Would it be fair to say that 1 Corinthians 2 is a contrast between philosophy and intimate knowledge?
Yes and even more. Because Paul in his stating, “I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling,” basically says if he doesn’t have Jesus and His Spirit of Power - he hasn’t got anything of value. If God does not back-up what he speaks through him, then it is either a lie or all in vain intellect and opinion. Conventional definitions say philosphy is opinion on how to do something logically but the scripture hear says, “your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but the power of God.” He must demonstrate Himself to us. It is all Him and nothing of our own doing, opinion or thought.
In the words of a missionary I know named Georgian Banov - “give yourself a brain break.”
Yeah, thanks Thomas & Beef - these answers are all very effectively developing how superior God’s wisdom is to man’s. It’s like oil and water - there’s no gradient between them.
So now here’s a very important question: how can anyone tell if what they believe is purely God’s wisdom or if there’s philosophy hidden away in there?
Dude, I’d like to hear you speak on that. God has always confirmed many of the things He has taught me. I just know it’s from Him. He didn’t only confirm thru other brothers/sisters but it has also been tested. What is from Jesus is unshakable. I mean really tested homes. Nothing like the things from men or the natural. I mean I’ve seen beliefs held by good people just crushed before them by just a mere sentence or event. The things of the Lord are unshakable.
But like I said, I’d like to hear what you were wanting to get at…
Prophetic things are confirmed by 2 or 3 witnesses. Witnesses are those who have the same active Word of God. The Bible is also a great place because it is automatically one of those two or three witnesses. Many times the Holy Spirit bears witness to you and you just act and see the fruit. Amen. That we could all do what the Father is Doing all the time like Jesus did. However, sometimes we are not sure and that is fine. Jesus knows we are not fully confident sometimes when the word comes. Therefore he sends witnesses to confirm that word and maybe add to the specifics. Obviously how he delivers the Word is unique to the relationship he has to you. This relational attribute is understanding a prophet must have when delivering a word as well because they cannot expect it happens all the same way with anyone. They can only expect that God will give them the Word to declare to a brother or sister.
What if the 2 or 3 witnesses were all in scripture? Is it possible to get beyond a place where of “you just know that you know” or “prophet X told me..”? What we’re talking about is having nothing less than the leadership of the Holy Ghost as absolutely preeminent in our lives and in the church.
Ultimately in order to pass along all the words of this life, The Faith that was once delivered to the saints - don’t we have to have something that is objective rather than subjective?
Zilch. When Jesus said “Come. Let us reason” it is completely separate from philosophy. It really is simple. Walk in the Spirit. His ways are higher, have faith in Him.
I may be jumping ahead of myself, but it seems to me, the tree of simplicity bears fruit of purity, clarity, and order. Complexity bears confusion and chaos.
hA!
I’ve heard people say why they think philosophy is important to the Kingdom, but the New Testament always casts philosophy as a liability.
Why is that?
I feel many people begin to lose focus when philosophy moves in. Our focus is Jesus. A genuine increase of Jesus within His people. Philosophy tends to shift that focus and starts to move things within the sphere of the natural. Natural understanding. Natural programs. Natural solutions. Even when these things are dressed with “godliness”, it is effectively limiting the Holy Spirit. You cannot direct the wind. We do not need to setup tubes/channels in an attempt to direct the Holy Spirit. We have got to climb and stand on the ground where there are no fences. Jesus. Allowing Him to move as He pleases. Beyond our natural minds and understanding. Those chains have got to be broken and I feel that philosophy exercises the natural mind (which is something that needs to be brought to death at the cross, and of course lets not forget the life side of the cross as well).
But, I’d like to hear why you think that is.
I hear that. Is philosophy carnal thinking? Is philosophy the wisdom of the world?
Well I wanna say wisdom of this world. Normally when I think carnal, I think desire and self. But could it be both?
I am with Beef on this question too. The diffeence between a Christian and the rest of the world is the Holy Spirit through which he/she lives by the very present Word of God. I looked up the definition of philosophy which I had always viewed as the “study of Life.” Since Jesus is ‘the way, the truth, the life,’ I never had much use for philosophy in a worldly context.
Some definitions I found:
“the rational investigation of the truths and principles of being, knowledge, or conduct.” - Random House Dictionary - 2006
“1. Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline.
2. Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods.
3.The critical analysis of fundamental assumptions or beliefs.
4. A system of values by which one lives.” - American Heritage, 2006.
Of all these defs, only one stands out as not philosophy and that would be #3. However, I left it in there because as a berean who desires to honor the Word, it makes sense.
But Jesus and later Paul explain that philosophy (system of beliefs or values by which one lives) is not following Christ or Kingdom living. In Christian terms - that is legalism. Some would say, “Well does that mean you have a license to do whatever you want?” A common counter question in this discussion I have heard over and over again. But I submit, this question is wrong because it is looking for human discipline to define Christian life which we have determined is by Holy Spirit speaking the very Word of God to us which we must obey.
The question that should be asked is, “Why such freedom of choice for the human? Does not God know that this is unreasonable to expect such a response of love in return?”
Christ died on a Cross and was raised from the dead by the the Father of Lights on the 3rd day. Through his sacrifice, sin was taken out of the world and was put to death, once and for all nailed to that cross (Colossians 2). Through his sacrifice, the Kingdom of God was established where if you confess With Your Lips and BELIEVE in your heart that Jesus is Lord, you shall be saved. This wisdom is foolishness to men. This foolishness is wiser than man’s understanding as well.
The outpouring of the Father and the Son to us has been continual ever since. It is not by might, nor by power but by His Spirit that life is not just lived, but given. Sanctification is the process by which the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth. I will use a simple testimony as an example because it fits. There was a family that lived across the street from mine growing up. The son was the guy many of us picked on in the neighborhood. We did bad hurtful things as kids to one another. Later in life, we became closer friends and I being a Christian was trying to get him saved by reasoning with him with the scripture and taking him to church when he would rarely oblige. One day, he visited and the Lord spoke - “Apologize and ask for forgiveness for all the bad things you did to him when you were younger.” I didn’t want to but the Lord pressed me. In obedience I did and the Lord brought forth many things I did that I had forgotten. The conversation I had with him was more impacting for the Kingdom then all “the witnessing” I had ever done. Where trust was lost in the spirit, it was restored. Where records of wrongs were kept, they were gone. I ultimately got to baptize my friend that same year. He requested that I would do it.
Life is not a systematic thing. It is a relationship with Christ that brings fruitful relationship with others. Each is unique but the Lord knows all things and searches your heart to bring forth life at it’s proper time. He breaks walls that have been built in relationship over wrongs done and builds relational freedom.
If you desire, freedom and love and the benevolence of The Father of Lights, then you will not take license with your new found payment of debt. You have a CHOICE. You can take advantage of others but you cannot take advantage of God because he will stand in judgement and conviction. His Love permeates mankind’s relationship with one another. In the words of Dietrich Bonhoeffer - “Jesus is the mediator of every relationship whether you believe or not.” I might be paraphrasing but it is true.
There are many great truths Holy Spirit has spoken as the Father and Son that the world believes. In the same breath, they deny the very author of them. These truths have been maligned through the way they are displayed and explained by man in his own power. At the same time, The Father in his benevolence continues to sustain his creation by them as well. He relates and serves with his authority unseen by many of those he has created. He draws all men unto himself. We are created for relationship with Him.
That is not philosophy - it’s fact. Believe it or not.
This is good - true understanding is all found in love/relationship, not intellect/opinion. Would it be fair to say that 1 Corinthians 2 is a contrast between philosophy and intimate knowledge?
Yes and even more. Because Paul in his stating, “I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling,” basically says if he doesn’t have Jesus and His Spirit of Power - he hasn’t got anything of value. If God does not back-up what he speaks through him, then it is either a lie or all in vain intellect and opinion. Conventional definitions say philosphy is opinion on how to do something logically but the scripture hear says, “your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but the power of God.” He must demonstrate Himself to us. It is all Him and nothing of our own doing, opinion or thought.
In the words of a missionary I know named Georgian Banov - “give yourself a brain break.”
“Would it be fair to say that 1 Corinthians 2 is a contrast between philosophy and intimate knowledge?”
YES!
And Thomas, thanks for the posts. Like our homeboy Glen said “This is good.”
Yeah, thanks Thomas & Beef - these answers are all very effectively developing how superior God’s wisdom is to man’s. It’s like oil and water - there’s no gradient between them.
So now here’s a very important question: how can anyone tell if what they believe is purely God’s wisdom or if there’s philosophy hidden away in there?
Dude, I’d like to hear you speak on that. God has always confirmed many of the things He has taught me. I just know it’s from Him. He didn’t only confirm thru other brothers/sisters but it has also been tested. What is from Jesus is unshakable. I mean really tested homes. Nothing like the things from men or the natural. I mean I’ve seen beliefs held by good people just crushed before them by just a mere sentence or event. The things of the Lord are unshakable.
But like I said, I’d like to hear what you were wanting to get at…
Prophetic things are confirmed by 2 or 3 witnesses. Witnesses are those who have the same active Word of God. The Bible is also a great place because it is automatically one of those two or three witnesses. Many times the Holy Spirit bears witness to you and you just act and see the fruit. Amen. That we could all do what the Father is Doing all the time like Jesus did. However, sometimes we are not sure and that is fine. Jesus knows we are not fully confident sometimes when the word comes. Therefore he sends witnesses to confirm that word and maybe add to the specifics. Obviously how he delivers the Word is unique to the relationship he has to you. This relational attribute is understanding a prophet must have when delivering a word as well because they cannot expect it happens all the same way with anyone. They can only expect that God will give them the Word to declare to a brother or sister.
What if the 2 or 3 witnesses were all in scripture? Is it possible to get beyond a place where of “you just know that you know” or “prophet X told me..”? What we’re talking about is having nothing less than the leadership of the Holy Ghost as absolutely preeminent in our lives and in the church.
Ultimately in order to pass along all the words of this life, The Faith that was once delivered to the saints - don’t we have to have something that is objective rather than subjective?
Right on! You are absolutely right, the Holy Ghost.