church does NOT equal Jesus
(perhaps if you said “the Church,” then I’d have to affirm that statement, because at some point in history “the body of Christ” became equated with “the Church,” whenever the term “Church” came about — I’m sure Wikipedia has the whole story)
The church should equal Jesus, not religion. When you meet the church (and we are not talking about a building), you should meet the Lord Jesus. This is one of the vocations of the church and obviously this needs to move beyond just mere understanding. It needs to be lived, which is apart from human efforts. It takes a working of the Holy Spirit to wrought Jesus into His people. These people are well described as the New Jerusalem in Revelations.
I asked that because I really believe it’s impossible to separate Jesus and the Kingdom of God and the church. The church is his body, and he is the head of the body, and wherever he goes his Kingdom is manifested.
The word “church” (and all it stands for) is sort of caught in the crossfire between the way the New Testament describes it and what we actually see it to be here pushing 2008. I feel strongly that no one should ever want to be associated with dead stale religiousness - Jesus got out the whip and kicked over tables when he saw that ugly thing manifest. But then he loved loved loved the church and gave himself for it. He breathed his last and fell asleep; then Father opened up his side blood and water flowed out and he formed the church.
Let me ask this. Are comments like “I’m into Jesus, I just can’t stand the church” valid? Or are they cop-outs that back us into a corner of our own isolated opinion and experience?
I think when you hear that statement most of the time they are talking about a church or the way most churches function today. I’m sure most of the people making that statement are capable of standing back and agreeing there is a difference between that and His people. I don’t speak against churches, though I do have concerns and currently do not attend one. I don’t push that kind of thinking on anyone else, this was a personal decision that was made before the Lord.
OK. What if we were right now given authority from heaven to forgive, reconcile and eclipse every last misrepresentation of Jesus Christ?
God makes it easy on needy people. He hangs a sign up and says “meet me together here.” Then he turns to us and says “they don’t need to depart - you give them something to eat.”
If it meant giving our lives, could we see the church (I mean local assemblies the world over) get to the place where showing up to church would be exactly like showing up to one of Jesus’ meetings? …Experiencing Jesus first-hand couldn’t help but completely overwhelm ritual-religion… What if God actually empowered us to hand that kind of church off to our kids?
I totally agree and understand what you are saying.
The biggest reason I currently do not attend is because I am still in a time of schooling (and always will be) and I feel God has confirmed He wants me to teach/preach (and of course it is not limited to just those things). When I was attending churches I constantly found myself praying, “Please Lord, filter out what is not of You in this message.” Please don’t get me wrong, I do not look down on anyone or I am not putting myself up on stilts (please correct me if I am indeed doing those things). It came down to “I want no interference during this time” because addressing God’s people with a message or interpreting His thoughts before the church are very serious things to me. I want it to be pure, from Him, and I guess I was somewhat scared of interference while learning from the Lord.
That’s why I say it was a personal decision and I do totally agree with you. Bro, if it is time for me to move on and get over this thing, I want to do that. I truly desire to walk with the Lord in His glory and to KNOW Him. Really.
Brent you’re saying what I know many people feel. This is amazing to be able to talk about church in real life terms.
So let’s take where you’re at (which again is where lots of sincere believers are right now - out of church because there’s too much to sort through) as point A. Then take my previous comment as point B. What’s our heavenly vision for seeing God take us from A to B?
The only way I know how to address that question is from what I’ve been feeling this whole time. I am open to correction bro. But I just felt that when I was really rooted and ready it would be clear/obvious. I have much to learn and will always continue to learn (His ways/wisdom is just unsearchable/amazing). I feel that time is approaching rapidly.
Yeah, go with that pure hunger and that thirst! Correction would be “get thee to church”… but it really comes down to hunger and thirst for righteousness, seeing the kingdom of God laid out before you and seeking it above all other options. We’re talking about being part of a supernatural work that will transform the earth by the impact that God makes through his people. Obligation won’t touch that.
Hunger and thirst alone can tap into Father’s intense and beautiful desires for the church. Once anyone truly hits that nerve I don’t think there’s ever any going back.
“What if God actually empowered us to hand that kind of church off to our kids?”
That’s the question I’ve been asking myself lately, as I too (and my family) have ceased attending a traditional/institutional church. We are desiring to be about a Kingdom project in our own community, and we are seeking God’s direction in that.
To answer your earlier question, Glen, “Are comments like ‘I’m into Jesus, I just can’t stand the church’ valid?” I would answer, Absolutely yes! because so many of us have experienced “church” (the typical expression of it here in the U.S.A.) and found it severely deficient in its ability to form us spiritually, disciple us, etc. We are hungering for real food, real community, a real sense of God’s presence, to be a part of something real that God is doing (not something manufactured by man and set-up to sustain the machine).
It’s an absolute love for The Church that has compelled me into this ecclesiological wilderness, seeking to BE The Church where I am here and now. It’s not a utopian vision, either. It’s a biblical vision of people reconciled to each other and to God, turning their lives around to follow Jesus, etc.
I’m not as charismatic/Pentecostal as you are, I don’t think, but the way you’re tuned into the Spirit is inspiring to me. Thanks for your music and for sharing it (and these thoughts) online. I am encouraged and stengthened by them.
“I feel strongly that no one should ever want to be associated with dead stale religiousness - Jesus got out the whip and kicked over tables when he saw that ugly thing manifest.”
I think we should keep that in mind and go over these posts again.
Church = Jesus. Jesus is the head of the body. Where he goes the Kingdom will manifest. These statements are correct. Knowing these facts are essential to Christian growth.
BEEF - Church is not a matter of what comes from the pulpit. It is a matter of what the head of the body is doing. If God has taken you from the assembly, has he removed you from the body? Consequently, have you removed yourself from the body out of fear (of receiving convoluted messages)? “Perfect love casts out fear because fear has to do with punishment (i.e. getting it wrong and condeming yourself).”
The church is a RELATIONAL organism. Why? Because God wants relationship. The head said, “Love God with all your heart, soul mind and strength. Love others as you would yourself.” The Kingdom manifests in worship of God in Christ Jesus. The Kingdom manifests in following the Holy Spirit into relationships. Those relationships allow for prophetic words for your life. Words that encourage, comfort, edify and propel you into intimacy with Jesus.
This blog is church because the goal is a relational conversation that gets us all closer to Jesus. It is not “Glenn’s cool art showcase.” BTW, cool inspiration, Glenn!
Perhaps the model of church as presented in culture is not what you find to be biblical. Neither do I on many levels, but, I do find communion with the saints and many times I find myself ignoring the inconsequential “preaching” to establish Kingdom relationships. Righteousness, Joy and Peace in the Holy Spirit among the brothers and sisters in Christ.
There are places that have congregational “body ministry” in the world. Even those forms have their perils and shortcomings. I do not think assemblies have it all whereever I go. But what they do have is the opportunity to establish Kingdom relationship in my life through the Head of the body which is Christ.
This body is relational. You cannot say to the foot, if you are the hand, “I have no need of you.” Jesus is saying to us, “You need to lay down your version for mine. No one is permitted to judge except God alone.” The imperfections of the assemblies are obvious and some are wreaking absolute dogmatic destruction on the members of their own bodies. However, your relationship with Jesus and confidence in the Kingdom Of God which is in you and surrounding you, can overcome these obstacles and impart life to those God places in your life.
There is a point where we die to our view and disgust on things so your seed can actually sprout life. Your righteousness is cultiviated for a future glorious display. You are to become an eruption of truth and beauty.
Your season may end soon or now. You cannot rise on the sidelines in regards to Church. Jesus will bring you in the game to lead you to victory.
That’s it. What if the rallying point was anywhere the pure Word of God and the his presence had absolute preeminence? Could we be so led of the Spirit that we would literally speak the same thing - that people would look hard for doctrinal differences or denominational branding among the saints and not be able to find any?
I am personally crying out asking the Holy Spirit to knock over any tables of ritual and tradition and reliance on human ability in my own life. I don’t know about any phony religiousness in other people or churches anymore - all I know is that I personally don’t ever want to grieve the Holy Ghost.
I know God will knit my heart together with those who have that same heart. I’m convinced that’s where we’ll find true indivisible community - the Kingdom of God in action - the church that functions as The Church >>
Wow. I don’t know where to start I would like to say I love ya dudes a great deal and I truly am thankful for my brothers and sisters. Though I currently do not attend a church, I have never felt separated from the body. I have felt a communion with the church. I constantly pray for her. That our eyes be set upon Jesus and ACTUALLY have hearts for Him. That she be captivated by Him. That we receive faith, love, kindness, gentleness, patience, wisdom, strength, courage, and knowledge. I pray she be the body and Christ be the head and we receive ONLY from the HEAD! I acknowledge that we have certain functions but pray we do not limit Him and are always open to continually grow/learn.
I totally agree with everything you guys have said and I can’t express how thankful I am to have you guys. I read about our bro Elijah who thought he was alone. God showed him that was not true Elijah really loves God. A true dude. And I feel a lot can be drawn from these simple truths.
I figured God removed you from the assembly and not the body.
Glenn - the community God has created here rules. It is hard to find a blog where things are written and the Spirit broods over the words with an intimate connection. To those who desire the Kingdom - come and thirst no more. Jesus loves our questions. Let us all get them answered.
Ahhh….here it is Sunday. Isn’t it just like God to put some place - one of his candlesticks - within 100 miles of your digs where you can see all of this live!
Now log off, grab your keys, start praying, and see where the Holy Spirit takes you >>
Great questions, Glen. IMHO …
church DOES equal religion all too often (sadly)
church does NOT equal Jesus
(perhaps if you said “the Church,” then I’d have to affirm that statement, because at some point in history “the body of Christ” became equated with “the Church,” whenever the term “Church” came about — I’m sure Wikipedia has the whole story)
I’ll go one step further …
church does NOT equal the Kingdom of God
what do you think?
The church should equal Jesus, not religion. When you meet the church (and we are not talking about a building), you should meet the Lord Jesus. This is one of the vocations of the church and obviously this needs to move beyond just mere understanding. It needs to be lived, which is apart from human efforts. It takes a working of the Holy Spirit to wrought Jesus into His people. These people are well described as the New Jerusalem in Revelations.
Oh yeah, by “church,” I mean what the new testament calls the church (ekklesia).
When Jesus was physically walking around in Israel, wasn’t what he was doing and saying both the focus and locus of the kingdom of God in the earth?
I asked that because I really believe it’s impossible to separate Jesus and the Kingdom of God and the church. The church is his body, and he is the head of the body, and wherever he goes his Kingdom is manifested.
The word “church” (and all it stands for) is sort of caught in the crossfire between the way the New Testament describes it and what we actually see it to be here pushing 2008. I feel strongly that no one should ever want to be associated with dead stale religiousness - Jesus got out the whip and kicked over tables when he saw that ugly thing manifest. But then he loved loved loved the church and gave himself for it. He breathed his last and fell asleep; then Father opened up his side blood and water flowed out and he formed the church.
Let me ask this. Are comments like “I’m into Jesus, I just can’t stand the church” valid? Or are they cop-outs that back us into a corner of our own isolated opinion and experience?
“I’m into Jesus, I just can’t stand the church”
I think when you hear that statement most of the time they are talking about a church or the way most churches function today. I’m sure most of the people making that statement are capable of standing back and agreeing there is a difference between that and His people. I don’t speak against churches, though I do have concerns and currently do not attend one. I don’t push that kind of thinking on anyone else, this was a personal decision that was made before the Lord.
OK. What if we were right now given authority from heaven to forgive, reconcile and eclipse every last misrepresentation of Jesus Christ?
God makes it easy on needy people. He hangs a sign up and says “meet me together here.” Then he turns to us and says “they don’t need to depart - you give them something to eat.”
If it meant giving our lives, could we see the church (I mean local assemblies the world over) get to the place where showing up to church would be exactly like showing up to one of Jesus’ meetings? …Experiencing Jesus first-hand couldn’t help but completely overwhelm ritual-religion… What if God actually empowered us to hand that kind of church off to our kids?
I totally agree and understand what you are saying.
The biggest reason I currently do not attend is because I am still in a time of schooling (and always will be) and I feel God has confirmed He wants me to teach/preach (and of course it is not limited to just those things). When I was attending churches I constantly found myself praying, “Please Lord, filter out what is not of You in this message.” Please don’t get me wrong, I do not look down on anyone or I am not putting myself up on stilts (please correct me if I am indeed doing those things). It came down to “I want no interference during this time” because addressing God’s people with a message or interpreting His thoughts before the church are very serious things to me. I want it to be pure, from Him, and I guess I was somewhat scared of interference while learning from the Lord.
That’s why I say it was a personal decision and I do totally agree with you. Bro, if it is time for me to move on and get over this thing, I want to do that. I truly desire to walk with the Lord in His glory and to KNOW Him. Really.
Brent you’re saying what I know many people feel. This is amazing to be able to talk about church in real life terms.
So let’s take where you’re at (which again is where lots of sincere believers are right now - out of church because there’s too much to sort through) as point A. Then take my previous comment as point B. What’s our heavenly vision for seeing God take us from A to B?
The only way I know how to address that question is from what I’ve been feeling this whole time. I am open to correction bro. But I just felt that when I was really rooted and ready it would be clear/obvious. I have much to learn and will always continue to learn (His ways/wisdom is just unsearchable/amazing). I feel that time is approaching rapidly.
Yeah, go with that pure hunger and that thirst! Correction would be “get thee to church”… but it really comes down to hunger and thirst for righteousness, seeing the kingdom of God laid out before you and seeking it above all other options. We’re talking about being part of a supernatural work that will transform the earth by the impact that God makes through his people. Obligation won’t touch that.
Hunger and thirst alone can tap into Father’s intense and beautiful desires for the church. Once anyone truly hits that nerve I don’t think there’s ever any going back.
“We’re talking about being part of a supernatural work that will transform the earth by the impact that God makes through his people.”
Word
“What if God actually empowered us to hand that kind of church off to our kids?”
That’s the question I’ve been asking myself lately, as I too (and my family) have ceased attending a traditional/institutional church. We are desiring to be about a Kingdom project in our own community, and we are seeking God’s direction in that.
To answer your earlier question, Glen, “Are comments like ‘I’m into Jesus, I just can’t stand the church’ valid?” I would answer, Absolutely yes! because so many of us have experienced “church” (the typical expression of it here in the U.S.A.) and found it severely deficient in its ability to form us spiritually, disciple us, etc. We are hungering for real food, real community, a real sense of God’s presence, to be a part of something real that God is doing (not something manufactured by man and set-up to sustain the machine).
It’s an absolute love for The Church that has compelled me into this ecclesiological wilderness, seeking to BE The Church where I am here and now. It’s not a utopian vision, either. It’s a biblical vision of people reconciled to each other and to God, turning their lives around to follow Jesus, etc.
I’m not as charismatic/Pentecostal as you are, I don’t think, but the way you’re tuned into the Spirit is inspiring to me. Thanks for your music and for sharing it (and these thoughts) online. I am encouraged and stengthened by them.
Shalom.
Glen said in post 4:
“I feel strongly that no one should ever want to be associated with dead stale religiousness - Jesus got out the whip and kicked over tables when he saw that ugly thing manifest.”
I think we should keep that in mind and go over these posts again.
Church = Jesus. Jesus is the head of the body. Where he goes the Kingdom will manifest. These statements are correct. Knowing these facts are essential to Christian growth.
BEEF - Church is not a matter of what comes from the pulpit. It is a matter of what the head of the body is doing. If God has taken you from the assembly, has he removed you from the body? Consequently, have you removed yourself from the body out of fear (of receiving convoluted messages)? “Perfect love casts out fear because fear has to do with punishment (i.e. getting it wrong and condeming yourself).”
The church is a RELATIONAL organism. Why? Because God wants relationship. The head said, “Love God with all your heart, soul mind and strength. Love others as you would yourself.” The Kingdom manifests in worship of God in Christ Jesus. The Kingdom manifests in following the Holy Spirit into relationships. Those relationships allow for prophetic words for your life. Words that encourage, comfort, edify and propel you into intimacy with Jesus.
This blog is church because the goal is a relational conversation that gets us all closer to Jesus. It is not “Glenn’s cool art showcase.” BTW, cool inspiration, Glenn!
Perhaps the model of church as presented in culture is not what you find to be biblical. Neither do I on many levels, but, I do find communion with the saints and many times I find myself ignoring the inconsequential “preaching” to establish Kingdom relationships. Righteousness, Joy and Peace in the Holy Spirit among the brothers and sisters in Christ.
There are places that have congregational “body ministry” in the world. Even those forms have their perils and shortcomings. I do not think assemblies have it all whereever I go. But what they do have is the opportunity to establish Kingdom relationship in my life through the Head of the body which is Christ.
This body is relational. You cannot say to the foot, if you are the hand, “I have no need of you.” Jesus is saying to us, “You need to lay down your version for mine. No one is permitted to judge except God alone.” The imperfections of the assemblies are obvious and some are wreaking absolute dogmatic destruction on the members of their own bodies. However, your relationship with Jesus and confidence in the Kingdom Of God which is in you and surrounding you, can overcome these obstacles and impart life to those God places in your life.
There is a point where we die to our view and disgust on things so your seed can actually sprout life. Your righteousness is cultiviated for a future glorious display. You are to become an eruption of truth and beauty.
Your season may end soon or now. You cannot rise on the sidelines in regards to Church. Jesus will bring you in the game to lead you to victory.
That’s it. What if the rallying point was anywhere the pure Word of God and the his presence had absolute preeminence? Could we be so led of the Spirit that we would literally speak the same thing - that people would look hard for doctrinal differences or denominational branding among the saints and not be able to find any?
I am personally crying out asking the Holy Spirit to knock over any tables of ritual and tradition and reliance on human ability in my own life. I don’t know about any phony religiousness in other people or churches anymore - all I know is that I personally don’t ever want to grieve the Holy Ghost.
I know God will knit my heart together with those who have that same heart. I’m convinced that’s where we’ll find true indivisible community - the Kingdom of God in action - the church that functions as The Church >>
Wow. I don’t know where to start
I would like to say I love ya dudes a great deal and I truly am thankful for my brothers and sisters. Though I currently do not attend a church, I have never felt separated from the body. I have felt a communion with the church. I constantly pray for her. That our eyes be set upon Jesus and ACTUALLY have hearts for Him. That she be captivated by Him. That we receive faith, love, kindness, gentleness, patience, wisdom, strength, courage, and knowledge. I pray she be the body and Christ be the head and we receive ONLY from the HEAD! I acknowledge that we have certain functions but pray we do not limit Him and are always open to continually grow/learn.
I totally agree with everything you guys have said and I can’t express how thankful I am to have you guys. I read about our bro Elijah who thought he was alone. God showed him that was not true
Elijah really loves God. A true dude. And I feel a lot can be drawn from these simple truths.
MUCH, MUCH, MUCH, LOVE!!! In Jesus!
I figured God removed you from the assembly and not the body.
Glenn - the community God has created here rules. It is hard to find a blog where things are written and the Spirit broods over the words with an intimate connection. To those who desire the Kingdom - come and thirst no more. Jesus loves our questions. Let us all get them answered.
TRU DAT HOMEZ!
Thank you Holy Spirit for brooding over this - for leading us into all truth. Much much much much love it is!!
Ahhh….here it is Sunday. Isn’t it just like God to put some place - one of his candlesticks - within 100 miles of your digs where you can see all of this live!
Now log off, grab your keys, start praying, and see where the Holy Spirit takes you >>